Jumping To Conclusions

Don't know if they were raised Jewish, but one of the teenage sons just got arrested for stealing liquor.

And, 'raised' Jewish, if it means by implication, in tradition. Then, I'd vote 'no.' Most Americans who intermarry tend to make faith a non-issue.

Kids today are usually free from the crap that the old fashioned grandmas ruled with their rolling pins.

Most people have awoken to the truths of science. Many can't envision virgin births.

And, let's hope many are disgusted with the current president, his lack of scientific knowledge, and his beliefs in Creationism.

Dean's wife is definitely Jewish. As for their children, they "identify" as Jewish, according to this story, but were not formally raised as Jewish: http://www.jewishsf.com/bk030418/us02.shtml

If it matters.

I am curious, Partha. Why in the world would it matter to you if Howard Dean's wife or children are Jewish?

And since you brought up the subject of Jews, I am still waiting for your response to the Tony Auth political cartoon. Your silence is deafening.

> I am curious, Partha. Why in the
> world would it matter to you if
> Howard Dean's wife or children
> are Jewish?

It doesn't matter. Just curious. This sort of stuff interests me (just as Jack Kemp's Christian Science upbringing interested me).

Anybody know the answer to the Dean Witter question?

Dean Witter is the name of one of the people who started the company, so no, it has nothing to do with Howard Dean's family.

http://www.nybookdistributors.com/wall_street/feature/msdwd.html

The fact that Judith and her kids are Jewish is a matter of interest. This country has never had a jew living in the whitehouse, even if it is the wife and children. I like the idea of a hanukkah or passover celebration in the whitehouse. Interfaith marraige promotes religious tolerance. We could use some balance in our overly christian hegemony.

While I agree that having a balance in the white house is long over due, I do not think now is the time for any jews to be inside. Frankly, with terrorism pointed at the jewish population, I think american's should stay away from such a strong symbolic move.

jon calls having a jew anywhere in the white house a symbolic move. maybe having a specific person, jewish or not, in the white house based on merit, and having his wife there too, jewish or not, but rather, based on a family's need to live together, isn't a symbolic move. maybe it's a move toward getting the best person for the job in the white house, symbolism shmymbolism! was jfk (whether or not you liked him) elected because it was time to have a token catholic at 1600? i don't THINK so! (it also couldn't hurt to get the worst person for the job OUT of the white house, and that goes for his wife too!) americans are targets all over the world. nine/eleven didn't kill only jews, and one of the planes was SUPPOSEDLY headed for the white house, which didn't have any jews in it. sorry, jon, i admit your argument was gently put, but i can't buy it.

Asking "Why does it matter if Dean's wife is
Jewish?" is relevant if one considers the cultural factors that influence Americans' choices at the poll, and I simply can't imagine anyone denying the vast role that Christian teachings have played in American society and culture. These factors are probably much more important than intelligence. This fact was amply demonstrated during the last presidential election when 50 million people voted for George W.

All democrates are or jews or having a jewish wife.It is more probable that a democrate win the 2004 elections so at least one jew member,wether the president or the first lady,will be in the white house in 2004.We hope this will not affect the future of our nation,the middle easterns will be upset because of the Arabo-israelian conflict.I remind everybody that that conflict is between muslims and christians palestinians in side and israelians on the other side .So yes ,it does matter if Dean's wife is
Jewish.

i am responding to two posts at once.

um... remembering the "vast role that Christian teachings have played in American society and culture" requires remembering the vast role judaism has played in forming christianity! also, there would BE no united states were it not for the backing of a brave jew named chaim soloman. anyway, the first lady may have a political role to play in the country (many have, others have not) but her religion should not affect whether her husband, if he is the candidate, is worthy of the job. the fact that it may affect whether or not he is ELECTED is sad. i think this last is what chapman is referring to, and with this i pessimistically agree, although if you keep in mind that gore/leiberman actually WON the 2000 election, things may not be as bad as we think. the american people might not be such big idiots as we imagine. so i ALSO think the outcome of the 2004 election's being skewed by bigotry is not inevitable. i would have to change my citizenship if i thought it was inevitable, and i am actually quite fond of my american birthright. don't ask me whether i am fonder of my jewish birthright or my american one; catholics don't get asked that, and buddhists don't.

michael, the phrase "one jew member" is offensive; the adjective is "jewish" and considering the history of antisemitism, it's not just a grammatical error. your statement "All democrates are or jews or having a jewish wife." is just plain ridiculous. it's untrue and provably untrue. even if you mean all democratic CANDIDATES are jews or have jewish wives, it's untrue. in fact it's mindbogglingly ignorant. your reminder "that that conflict is between muslims and christians palestinians in side and israelians on the other side," is unclear. you seem to be saying that muslims, christians and palestinians are on one side, and israelis are on the other. (you don't mention jews, an ethnoreligious group; you mention israelis, who are the citizens of a nation mostly populated by jews but also populated by nonjews, who are, nonetheless, israelis. israelis don't vote in american elections. neither, for that matter, do palestinians.) in fact there are several conflicts happening: there is the longstanding one between muslims and christians in lebanon and elsewhere; there is the one between CERTAIN christians and jews, which is by NO means the only relationship christians have with jews, and which does not spring from any hostility on the part of jews for the simple reason that judaism is not a proselytizing religion and jews don't actually believe, much less say, that members of other religions are going to hell; jews believe otherwise! jews who are the subjects of attack by fundamentalist christians may allow themselves to become prejudiced against all christians, and if they do so, then they are becoming bigots themselves. the jews i know do not do this. how many jews do i know? well, there's my family, and the members of my synagogue, and every jew i've met in my nearly 52 years of life....) and there is the conflict between palestians and the israeli government, the latter being supported by many israelis citizens, jewish and otherwise, and NOT supported by other citizens, jewish and otherwise. there is no big jews-against-the-world conflict, as your statement seems to say.

i should mention that in MY community, there is much interfaith discussion and there are extremely friendly relations between the leaders and members of local mosques, synagogues and churches. like everywhere else, there are bigots here too, but the majority of the people here, whatever their background, vocally and actively disapprove of bigotry and frown on bigoted actions and teachings.

as for arab-americans being offended by someone's religion, hasn't the taste of unthinking anti-arab feeling (as if every arab were a terrorist) taught innocent arab-americans the ugliness of bigotry closely enough for them to want to discard their own, if they had any to begin with? i should think any right-thinking arab-american would care more whether a president or first lady were worthy than what their religious or cultural background might be. after all, there might one day be an arab-american candidate. as a jew, i would vote or not vote for that person based on policy, and political worthiness as i perceived it, not on ethnicity or religion.

g

I was not trying to offend anybody and if I did then I am sorry.All I said were facts ,nothing else.Yes I was talking about the democrate candidates.
And I hate that word terrorist that you just mentionned eventhough u didn`t mean it to be attributed to arabs .Remember that there are many arab jewish people in the world as well.
I have few arab friends and let me tell you that I have learned a lot from them that I am using everyday now to be as nicer and just as I can with others. Since you are jewish and 52 years old ,do you recall the origin of the word terrorist.From the history books I remember that the first people who used it were the British ,calling the israelites terrorists when after they gave them a piece of land in Palestine were crossing the borders set by the british for them .
Remember that even the democrate Dean who is now a serious candidate to get elected president was questionned about Israel.The jewish community in the US is carring more about the position of the president toward Israel than about how the president`s political worthiness is . I like to be honest and just and what I said is true and you know it ,everybody knows it. There is a big jewish lobby formed by very rich jewish people that controls the government and takes care of Israel .Do you know how much money goes from us to Israel every year ? Billions plus weapon of mass destructions ...etc and there is always more to say but I will stop here .

M

michael says "And I hate that word terrorist that you just mentionned eventhough u didn`t mean it to be attributed to arabs .Remember that there are many arab jewish people in the world as well." yes, there are arabian jews. and your point IS? as for your hating the word "terrorist," get over it. people who target civilians in order to make a political point by striking terror into the hearts of innocents are called terrorists. you can call them santa claus but they're still terrorists. your linguistic phobias do not change reality.

"From the history books I remember that the first people who used it were the British ,calling the israelites terrorists when after they gave them a piece of land in Palestine were crossing the borders set by the british for them . " not so, michael. you are not reading old enough history books. there have been terrorists since the beginning of history, and history did not begin in the 20th century. the 20th century just put more firepower into the hands of terrorists, and gave them more widespread publicity.

"The jewish community in the US is carring more about the position of the president toward Israel than about how the president`s political worthiness is ." oh are you in touch with the jewish community in the u.s.? you know this for a fact? i think you're making a pretty big assumption here. i hear quite a few other concerns within the jewish community here and other jewish communities across the u.s. in fact, the assumption you make is exactly what harms our chances of electing a president based on merit. yes, israeli survival is one of the concerns of american jewry at large. (and why shouldn't it be? come to think of it, why should the survival of a democracy in the middle of kingdoms and dictatorships not be EVERYONE's concern? oh, because it's full of jews. otherwise, it WOULD be everyone's concern. MY mistake.) it is by NO means all we think about when we go to the polls. for some jews, yes. for some nonjews, too, i think. it's ONE ISSUE. i, myself, for personal reasons, care more about health care.

"I like to be honest and just and what I said is true and you know it ,everybody knows it. " everyone who listens to YOU knows it. of course it's not TRUE, but they "know" it anyway. now you're being offensive again. and that crap about rich jews running everything. i'm on welfare, myself, not by choice but because i am disabled, waiting for social security to come through, which it might not do because of the conservative stranglehold on this nation. not by jews! well, some of them might HAPPEN to be jewish. but if i had a dollar for every time someone talked about rich jews running the country, i'd be a rich jew myself. where do y'all come UP with this crap anyway? last time i heard it, i went looking up who the CEOs were of the richest, most powerful corporations in the land. an extremely tiny percentage of them were jews. before you complain about the lobby to support israel, why don't you complain about the gun lobby? how about the oil lobby? and for your information, the ONLY NATION IN THE WORLD who has used weapons of mass destruction against another country is, can you guess? the united states of america.

yes, you're right there is always more to say. too bad the "more" is so very wrong. thank you for stopping.

g

I'm certain that Judith Dean will make a wonderful First Lady and role model for Americans. I have no doubt about it. However, I do have one extremely silly question. Will President Dean and First Lady Judith Dean decorate the White House each Christmas and follow the tradition of placing a large beautiful Christmas tree on the White House lawn each December?

I was talking about the word "terrorist" on the british dictionnary.There was no such word before.
I read that at least two times in books.

I am not agaisnt jewish people or anybody. Don`t be too stereotyped and don`t defend the jews too much cuz you guys act like you are always the victim of everything.You are just human beings just like everbody else created by god equally.You know exactly what the jews did in the past starting from killing Jesus .Please lets stop this conversation cuz its not going anywhere.

So if all the jews could disappear one day, wouldn't the clueless people of this planet feel disarmed for having no one to blame any more for their own stupidity ?

Why nobody ever mention the vast uneducated lobby which is even more powerful than any other intelectual/community/industrial lobby because it's this particular lobby that elects their leaders based on their smile and appearance on TV !

You can't expect refinement from McDo eaters!

um... michael, darling, PLEASE. in one breath you say "I am not agaisnt jewish people or anybody." and follow with "Don`t be too stereotyped and don`t defend the jews too much cuz you guys act like you are always the victim of everything." which, of course, stereotypes us pretty handily! we always do this, we always do that, we act like this, we act like that? how many jews do you actually KNOW? and do BOTH of them act the way you say?

and then you jump right to accusations: "You know exactly what the jews did in the past starting from killing Jesus ."

that's beneath contempt, michael. "Please lets stop this conversation cuz its not going anywhere. " go ahead and stop, michael. fine with ME.

larry: right on. 'cept they WOULD find someone else to blame. idiots always DO. and they're the same one who're voting for the smile. too bad they're too dumb to see THROUGH such smiles. shakespeare said, through... was it hamlet? i believe so: a man may smile and smile, and be a villain. guess folks just don't READ.

chapman, yours is not a silly question. it's a real question! despite our pretense of separation of church and state, this country is run on the assumption of its being a christian nation, and the white house christmas festivities are a part of national tradition, for better or worse. whether that means one first family can or even should safely and honorably break with that tradition is another story. hmm. lemme think. well, dean isn't jewish so he can do the christmas/easter thang just fine. judy can, when appropriate, light a big menorah, or do it privately, up to her i guess. well, okay, probably up to a LOT of people, but hopefully including her! but let's say both of them were jewish. then this would be a pretty big deal to some, eh? my suggestion to the first family in such a situation would be to follow jewish tradition in as public a manner as appropriate, for the rest of the jews in america, and for christians, have the vice president or someone else high up, who isn't jewish, lead a nice christmas celebration. there is no reason why any segment of the population should be ignored (as jews, in this case, ARE, today! and wake me up when there's a kwanzaa or ramadan celebration in the white house, because that'll be me, there on the ground, having fainted!) i'll mention on a PERSONAL note (although i know i'm not alone) that this is the loneliest time of the year for me. why? because of that great assumption that exists all year 'round but shows up in red, green and greenback from... i was about to say from thanksgiving to a little past new year's but by gum i was seeing it before hawllowe'en this year! celebrate all you want, my christian friends, but i AM tired of getting cards with crosses, jesuses and praying hands on them from folks who know i'm jewish, who then just protest that they're wishing me happy holidays. i'm tired of being told jesus loves me. i'm tired of being wished a merry christmas. it's NOT MY HOLIDAY. i shouldn't have to hate it, any more than anyone should hate mine. but it smothers me every year so i have come to hate it. sorry. it's an emotion. there it is. so in considering your perfectly rational (except for dean's not being jewish) question, chapman, i have tried to put my emotions aside and answer equally rationally. hope it made any sense.

g

Please lets stop this conversation cuz its not going anywhere. "

it seems somehow michael's request to stop the conversation got added to the end of MY last post. just wanted to point out that it was a quote, and not a request from me for this thread to end.

g

Don't know about this year, but last December the White House did feature a huge, beautiful Hannukah Menorah centrally located on the south lawn with the Christmas tree on the right side. Also, the president reportedly attended a Washington, D.C. mosque in honor of the Muslim Feast of Ramadan. It's probably quite a balancing act to walk a socio-politico-cultural tightrope while at the same time demonstrating respect for the view that there are many pathways to faith. (pardon the multiple metaphors) Regarding qail's not finding joy in the Christmas season, have I got news for you! Many of us Christians are also sick to our stomachs of the "green" part of Christmas.

Excellant discussion. My views on the Jewish destruction of the USA hasnt changed one iota. If a Jew gets into the White House I will either start a revolution or move to a Christian country. We should take into account what the Jews did for Russia and Germany, just to mention a couple.I'd rather be dead or shipped to Siberia than to live in a country run by Jews. You people will have to find another Goy to cook for you on Saturdays.

Here's who we have running against GW ( who is diehard 100% pro Israel ),

Joe Lieberman- Rabbi

Wesley Clark ( not real name ) - Jew

John Kerry ( lied about being Irish Cath. )-Jew

Howard Dean's wife-Jew

Gebhardt- Racial Jew?

Al Sharpton- Ethiopian Jew ? Dont laugh !

A vote cast for America is a vote cast for terrorism. This countries goose is cooked. I say, revolution NOW !

What a cavalcade of ignorance! If morons really believe the old canard that it's Jews who are behind the scenes and Jews who really run the government, then it doesn't really matter which figurehead is President, does it?

I have a really embarrassing dilemma. I spent the first 35 years of my life in the rural deep south and I was 30 when I first heard the word "anti-semitism" and had to ask what it meant. I am not being coy. Can someone please offer me a reasonable and logical basis for harboring anti-semitic views. This is not an unreasonable request. For example, if someone were to ask me for a reasonable basis for harboring, say, anti-Southern Baptist views, I could offer as examples: the Southern Baptists customarily don't allow women to serve as deacons or pastors. the Southern Baptists encourage the view that gay people have simply made a sinful choice in choosing their orientation. These are just two rational examples of how one might justify harboring anti-Southern Baptist views, which, most reasonable people would say, "Yes, those are a couple of good reasons for not liking the Southern Baptists". Now, as a Southern Baptist, I would like for someone to offer me a reasonable basis for harboring anti-semitic views. Are there any?

Hey, richardm999 (should be richard666) you are dopey bastard. Don't you know the Jews also are behind the UFO coverup! Get with it! (Or better yet, look over some vintage films of WWII and the concentration camps, -- and become a human being for once in your sick and pitiable life.)

Posted by: richardm999 at December 22, 2003 11:18 PM

Here's who we have running against GW ( who is diehard 100% pro Israel ),

Joe Lieberman- Rabbi

Wesley Clark ( not real name ) - Jew

John Kerry ( lied about being Irish Cath. )-Jew

Howard Dean's wife-Jew

Gebhardt- Racial Jew?

Al Sharpton- Ethiopian Jew ? Dont laugh !

A vote cast for America is a vote cast for terrorism. This countries goose is cooked. I say, revolution NOW !

Just for the record.... I find it fascinating that one of you ignorami - I cannot recall which one of you - commented on how the conflict in Israel consists of the Jews on one side and Muslims and Christians on the other. I hate to be this blunt about it, but I am a lifelong Baptist Christian, and the Jews have been FAR more friendly towards us than the Palestinian Muslims ever have. I remember, prior to 1967, I would try every year to go on a pilgrammage to Jerusalem, and every year I would be forbidden to go because Jerusalem - at that time - was run by the Muslims. Then Israel took over Jerusalem during the 1967 war, and guess what? All of a sudden the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was cleaned up, all of Jesus's walkings were opened up to visitors, and for the first time in 44 years I was allowed to visit the land where my lord and savior graced this earth. So to whoever it was that said that Israeli Jews aren't friendly to Christians - forgive me, but if I had twice the brains you had, I would have no brains.

Considering all the nice things Christians have done for Native Americans and African Americans over the past couple of centuries, I simply can't imagine why Muslims wouldn't welcome us with open arms in Jerusalem.

I totally agree that this Nation, conceived in liberty, has indeed been blessed by the almighty. Those few who would have every mention of G-d or his word removed from our midst are truly misguided. I believe that our founding fathers did not intend that "FREEDOM OF RELIGION", where every person is free to worship ( or not worship ) as they choose does not mean freedom FROM religion. The blessings that we enjoy in this great land are due to the fact that we have always, as National policy, allowed the free _expression of faith and gratitude to our creator. I also believe that should there ever come a time when this is not allowed then our Creator could just as easily turn from us as he has turned from other nations and peoples of history and antiquity.
As a member of a minority religion in this country ( I am Jewish but this would most likely be the feelings of any other minority member) I am uncomfortable with the term
" CHRISTIAN COUNTRY " It is certainly true that the majority of the founding fathers were of the Christian faith but the G-dly concepts that they used as the blueprint for our Declaration of Independence and for our Constitution are found not only in the Christian Bible but in the Hebrew Bible and even in the Quoran ( which also mentions reverence for the Prophet Moses and the Jew Jesus) Wouldn't it be nice if we could avoid religious compartmentalization and just refer to our country as a GODLY COUNTRY and it's inhabitants as a GODLY PEOPLE? This, to me, would avoid the perception that some have that Christianity is the superior or more favored by God religion. By the way. A little known or publicised fact: There might never have been a United States except for a brave and loyal Jew by the name of Chaim Soloman who pledged his entire fortune to the war effort in 1776. His loyalty and generosity insured that George Washington had enough food, clothing, munitions and other necessities to successfully defeat the British. He died penniless and without even a mention in most history books about the sacrifices he made for this nation. So I say again, we are not only a Christian Country, we are a Jewish Country, a Moslem Country a Buddhist Country etc.etc.etc. WE ARE A NATION UNDER GOD.

With Love,
Steve