Jumping To Conclusions

If the 21st century is to be well-started, we need a national agenda that is worked out in concert with the people, a healing agenda that is built on a true national consensus.

So the way to build a national consensus is to give a speech to a Left wing organization such as Moveon that is both anti-American and anti-Semitic?

Moveon is anti-American and anti-Semitic?

I didn't know.

How, exactly?

I am so glad you asked. If you go onto their website you will see that they opposed the US going to war. No, I am not referring to Iraq. Of course they were against that. I mean in Afghanistan. They saw nothing wrong with either the Taliban or Saddam Hussein killing their own people as well as supporting terrorists (Al Queda and the suicide bombers in Israel). When it comes to Israel, they are supporters of the Palestinians and accuse the Israelis of being evil occupiers of Palestinian lands -" the Israeli occupation is a historic wrong on the scale of slavery and apartheid". Yes that sounds like a fair assessment. They list the International Solidarity Movement as one of the groups they support. That group seeks the destruction of Israel and the killing of the Jews. Oh, and please don't tell me that they are only anti-Israel and not anti-Semitic. That is a convenient fiction. I could go on, but you should get the idea by now that Moveon is not a mainstream organization.

It appears that some of us are a little more sensitive to anti-Semitism that others. You have made four postings on the gay-Bishop issue. (For someone who is always attacking Andrew Sullivan, I am glad to know that you are really such an enlightened individual. Oh, right, it is just his politics that you are against). However, you have chosen to ignore the Tony Auth political cartoon. I guess there is a limit to the things that outrage you.

they were against that. I mean in Afghanistan.

This isn't anti-American. In fact, it's un-American for you to call it anti-American. Some people see little benefit from bombing people. Jesus, over at janegalt, the right-wingers are justifying not going to war with Saudi Arabia even if the missing 28 pages implicate the House of Saud in 9/11. I'm sure you wouldn't call any of them anti-American. Why do you have such little tolerance for difference of opinion?

They saw nothing wrong with either the Taliban or Saddam Hussein killing their own people as well as supporting terrorists

This is a lie. Just because you've suddenly discovered that human rights violations matter and must be immediately be met with all out war doesn't make the people who really care about human rights, but also distrust the use of force, uncaring. (Why do you hate the Burmese so much?)

When it comes to Israel, they are supporters of the Palestinians and accuse the Israelis of being evil occupiers of Palestinian lands -" the Israeli occupation is a historic wrong on the scale of slavery and apartheid".

Perhaps this is anti-Semitic. Perhaps. But it is also legitimate opinion to believe that Israel should not be occupying the West Bank and Gaza. In fact, depending on how things are generally going, half the Isaelis or more think that. In fact they march against the occupation. Why can't you for a moment put yourself in someone else's shoes to imagine their perspective? I grant you that the "slavery and apartheid" language is troublesome, but it doesn't diminish the strong moral case that anti-occupation people have. (FYI, I don't oppose the occupation on "slavery/apartheid" grounds, but on "doing more harm than good" grounds.)

. They list the International Solidarity Movement as one of the groups they support.

I couldn't find this reference on the moveon.org website, but I'll take your word for it. What I want take your word for is that they favor "killing jews." Their website says that they do favor resistance against occupation in the occupied territories. Again, troublesome, but they also say they favor non-violence. The truth is that everyone who believes that the Palestinians are downtrodden -- which is just about everyone in the world who doesn't read littelgreenfootballs -- also believe that resistance against occupation is legitimate within reason. If I see evidence that International Solidarity actually favors the terrorism by IJ and Hama, then moveon.org would be morally obligated to retract their support and apologize. But absent that, to somehow suggest that by supporting Palestinian self-determination that moveon.org is in favor of killing Jews is a little ... dare I say it? ... McCarthyist. (I'm interested. Is there any organization that opposes the occupation that you would not characterize as anti-Semitic?)

Apparently:

"ideologically narrow" = "doesn't agree with Partha's ideology"

"has seriously divided America" = "Imost of America doesn't agree with Partha"

Thank you Amitava for your response. So I am both un-American and McCarthyist (sic)? Rather than argue the facts, you resort to character assassination. It is good to know that you are not mean-spirited like those dastardly conservatives.

When your country is attacked and you refuse to support your own government's response to the attack, what would you call that, being a patriot? That is exactly the position taken by Moveon. And yes that is anti-American.

Just because you've suddenly discovered that human rights violations matter and must be immediately be met with all out war doesn't make the people who really care about human rights, but also distrust the use of force, uncaring.

That is just too funny. The people who really care about human rights. Don't make me laugh. Why, is that? Because you say so? However, the Left's actions speak louder than words. The Left is always so supportive of all of the downtrodden peoples of the world except when it is their own government that is killing them. The Left didn't care that the Taliban or Saddam Hussein were killing men, women and children. Did we see the Left go to Iraq and denounce the killings by its government? No, we saw the Left go there to be human shields to protect the government. It that what you call moral?

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Why do you hate the Burmese so much?

Yes, it is always the sanctions that harm the people, not the despotic government that has created the need for the sanctions. So once again, the Left stands with the oppressors over the oppressed. By the way, we heard that song and dance in Iraq, now didn't we? So why are we now finding all these mass graves? I guess it is all the people who were killed by the sanctions that are buried there.

the Israeli occupation is a historic wrong on the scale of slavery and apartheid". Perhaps this is anti-Semitic. Perhaps.

Perhaps? Perhaps! Your arrogance is simply amazing. Just what gives you the right to tell me what is or is not anti-Semitic. Just maybe I have a little more knowledge about it than you do. The Left has become the biggest purveyor of anti-Semitism. ANSWER seeks the destruction of Israel. Moveon, is just the "polite" version of ANSWER.

What I want take your word for is that they favor "killing jews." Their website says that they do favor resistance against occupation in the occupied territories.

Why does the Left think that everyone else is so stupid that they can't understand the written language? However, since I have a Ph.D., I can manage to decipher it. They favor resistance means that they support the suicide bombers. They are in favor of killing as many Jews as possible. They are in favor of the destruction of Israel. The rest of us can see that, even it you can't or won't.

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If I see evidence that International Solidarity actually favors the terrorism by IJ and Hama, then moveon.org would be morally obligated to retract their support and apologize.

What claptrap. Who made you the moral arbiter for us? You can't see it because you are blind to the killing of Jews. It does not mean anything to you because the Jews are not one of your oppressed peoples of the world. After all they are evil white Europeans. (Yes, that was sarcasm.) When the Left sends human shields to Israel to protect the Jews then I will be willing to believe that the Left cares about the killing of Jews.

I'm interested. Is there any organization that opposes the occupation that you would not characterize as anti-Semitic?

The trouble with you is that you are so taken by your self-proclaimed moral superiority that you have no idea what I think. What I favor is for the Palestinians to stop killing Jews. The PLO has never removed the destruction of Israel from their charter. If by some magic the Palestinians would start behaving like civilized human beings instead of blood thirsty killers, then I would be more than happy for them to have their own state. But under the current circumstances, if given their own state, they will use it as a staging ground to attack Israel until it is destroyed. If the Left was really interested in peace in Israel, they would demand that the Palestinians stop murdering Jews. I will not hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

Why can't we put him in a lockbox? He's way past exhausted his due date. Dukakis, now would be better material. Algore BLEW IT, folks! He had six weeks following election night 2000 ... and he just let it all slip away.

You think lawyers can fight for ya?

Nah. Lawyers who know the judge(s), always win. Rehnquist OWED James Baker for the gold braid stuff he got to put on his robes. (Remember? The public wasn't influenced by this Gilbert & Sullivan stuff. That's why Rehnquist jumped from the bench and pulled little George into the presidency.)

You think Americans don't remember? And, aren't waiting poised to vote again? But, please, not for that orange painted piece of wood that tried to pass himself off as interesting by tongue kissing his wife. Yikes, to even think he wants to strike again! He's the only man alive that can shove Bush into another 'victory.' BEWARE.

Calling me arrogant is a hoot. My position is that it's possible to disagree on matters of war and not be anti-American. I think Thomas Jefferson and Teddy Roosevelt agreed with me. Any support for your proposition that American must support government policy, no matter how ill conceived? I think it's possible to believe that the Palestinians have gotten a raw deal and not be a Jew killer. (Although you seem to think you know me well, I favored the war in Afghanistan, and I absolutely believe that Israel has the right to fight terrorists, especially targeting militants. So I disagree with the "Left", as you call it. But I guess that doesn't matter to you.) Whereas your position is you are right, and everyone else are terrorist-symps. Sounds like ideological narrowness to me.

What right do I have to question your judgment about anti-Semitism? I guess none. What right do you have to question mine? Or anyone's judgment about what is racist?

The murder of Jews doesn't mean anything to me? Please. As a conservative, you play the victimology card pretty well. No one can claim to be more committed than me to the idea that the world owes the Jews a safe home, in large part as a result of the Holocaust. But again, I can see why Arabs would be upset that that payment was a form of colonialism and at the expense of Arabs and not, say, Germans. Must be my arrogance for seeing two points of view. Makes me a Jew killer-symp, I guess.

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I don't think Jews are evil white Europeans. I think many Likudniks are largely expansionist, border-line racist white former Europeans. I think that Israelis, however, as a whole are a democratic, peace-loving, moral people who have a right to leave free of Palestinian terror. But I don't think people who believe that Palestinians have a right to live free of checkpoints and collateral damage from assassination attempts, but who oppose targeting civilians, are vile Jew killers. Again, that's called having respect for debate. Must be my arrogance.

The same person who made you the moral arbiter for whether or not people who disagree with you are anti-American made me the moral arbiter of your views.

Human shields? Easy to pick on the whackos. I think I'll pick that murder-inciting Kahane organization to represent your views. Sure makes debating easier.

Pretty awful about the mass graves in Iraq. Too bad they were largely filled during the 80s when the US was giving Saddam Hussein the guns and tactical help he needed to use them. Gee, who was it that was arguing that doing so was bad for the US, as well as the Iraqi people? Oh, that would be the stupid, hypocritical, Jew-hating, anti-American liberal human rights workers, who for the last thirty years were risking their lives sneaking in and out of Iraq, getting first-hand testimony to back up their persistent lobbying efforts in Washington in order to stop the military support of mass murderers. I think it's clear who has the true commitment to human rights. George W. isn't one of them. If he were, he'd be on his hands and knees begging the forgiveness of the Iraqis and Iranians for our (specifically, his father's, Rumsfeld's, and Cheney's) complicity in the mass murders during the 80s.

Gee. Accepting responsibility for our short-comings. Must be arrogance.

I think Thomas Jefferson and Teddy Roosevelt agreed with me.

Of course they did. By the way, do you speak to they often? What else have they told you?

Nobody said that one has to agree with our government. But when one sides with the enemy, I would say that is anti-American. Both Moveon and International ANSWER have supported the Taliban and Saddam Hussein. If you can not see that that is anti-American, then that is your problem.

I am so glad you can see both sides of the issue. It is always so much easier to be fair and balanced when it doesn't affect you directly. When Palestinians stop attempting to kill all Jews, maybe I will also be able to see both sides of the issue.

What right do you have to question mine (about anti-Semitism)?

It is very simple. You are not a Jew! Your parents were never attacked for being Christ killers. Your relatives were never slaughtered in the holocaust. Your friends were not blown up in Pizza parlors in Israel. You don't have to endure attacks from neo-Nazis, Arabs and Muslims. You don't have to worry about the UN passing resolutions that Zionism is Nazism. You don't have to worry that people want to kill you simply because you are a Jew.

As a conservative, you play the victimology card pretty well.

Boy there is so much baggage packed into this one sentence. The assumption is that only liberals can be victims, right (and that conservatives are the victimizers)? Excuse me, but I don't consider myself a victim. I do not want you or anyone else to be my protector. Rather I subscribe to the position of never again.

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No one can claim to be more committed than me to the idea that the world owes the Jews a safe home

The world doesn't own the Jews anything. That is your mentality, not mine. What was done, was done. Unless you know how to go back in time and change history, we can't undo the Crusades, the Inquisition, the pogroms, the Holocaust, etc. I am not looking for any charity from the world. All I want from the world is for it to stop trying to wipe out the Jewish people. That's not asking too much now, is it?

Must be my arrogance for seeing two points of view.

Do you really see two points of view? Have you denounced Jordan for driving the Palestinians out of their country or the Kuwaitis for expelling the Palestinians from their country or the whole Arab world for keeping the Palestinians in refugee camps for 55 years or the Arabs for not giving the Palestinians a state in the West Bank and Gaza when they controlled those territories from 1948 to 1967? No of course not. Those events don't even cross your mind. It is only the Jews who are holding the Palestinians back.

Do you know that the Arabs in Israel have full citizenship and are elected to the Israeli Knesset? In which Arab country do Jews have those rights? Do you also know that there were as many Jews who were driven out of the Arab countries as were there Palestinians who left Israel? Why are those Jews not living in refugee camps? Why is the world not demanding that they be given compensation by the Arab countries?

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I don't think Jews are evil white Europeans. I think many Likudniks are largely expansionist, border-line racist white former Europeans.

Wow! It is not often that one contradicts himself in the space of one sentence! Since the Likud party is the one in power and was elected by the Israelis, I guess that means that a good percentage of the Israelis are border-line racists. By the way, just what race is that that are being racists against? I don't believe that there is such a thing as an Arab race, now is there? However, I am not surprised you would make such a statement. That is exactly the thinking I would expect from you. You immediately resort to name-calling to demonize the opposition. Also, for your information, they are not Likudniks. They are members of the Likud party. The term Likudniks is a pejorative that is used to describe the so-called neo-cons that support the current Israeli government.



Too bad you didn't stop at that point. Then we could have agreed on something. Unfortunately, you followed that sentence with the word but, which means that you don't really believe that. It is really so hard for you to understand that there wouldn't be checkpoints and there wouldn't be collateral damage if the Palestinians were not sending suicide bombers to kill Jewish civilians? Do you not understand the difference between cause and effect?

I think we debated this to death. I responded to you not to change your mind but for the others who may be reading this blog. I did not want to leave your comments unchallenged. No, I don't think you are an evil person. However, I do think you are misguided. We are fortunate to live in a country that provides us with democracy, freedom of speech and capitalism. Where can you find another country where you will have more freedom and opportunity then in the US? Why do you look so harshly at your own country?